Talk:Zurich Airport/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Zurich Airport. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

SBB in Mulhouse

Can someone explain this entry to me please:

Zurich Airport is on the line Zurich-Winterthur-St. Gallen with rail service from Swiss Federal Railways to SBB Rail Station in Basel and Mulhouse, France, Bern Rail Station in Bern ...

According to my atlas, the cities of Basel and Mulhouse are some 30km apart. I've been to the railway stations in the centres of both cities, and they are quite distinct stations which are also presumably 30km apart. I know that Basel and Mulhouse do share an airport, and I'm wondering if this is what is causing the confusion. Certainly the above needs either removing or explaining better. -- Chris j wood 00:13, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, it seems that someone tried to contribute some of the cities and terminal points served by direct train connections from the ZRH station – besides those on on the specified line Zurich — Winterthur – but then got lost with adding Mulhouse. Perhaps this only should point out that there's a semi-direct connection by train between ZRH and the "Euroairport". The latter is losing "premium" traffic to Zurich and getting the low-cost carriers, which are giving up Zurich because of its expensive infrastructure, so there are quite some passengers using the train to "change" the airport.

The whole paragraph is confusing and awkwardly phrased, definately a stub. "SBB Rail Station in Basel" - normally called "Basel SBB". There are definately no services to Mulhouse. "Bern Rail Station in Bern" where else would Bern station be but in Bern? Ditto for "Lausanne Rail Station in Lausanne, and Lucerne Rail Station in Lucerne". I have changed the paragraph. Hopefully nobody objects. TiffaF 13:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

External links

There was a revert war about the inclusion of this German language website ZRHwiki. At first glance this seems like an appropriate website to add. Andries 18:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

How does the English speaking Wikipedia deal with such a problem? I'm bored with rv'ing this article a few times a day... is there a standard procedure for such disputes? --Swiss Aviation Supporter 11:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It is not an appropriate link to add, first off it's not English and it does not add anything the article does not already have, see WP:EL. Stick {{spam1}} through spamn on the users talk page if they re-add the link - try and get them to explain why they feel it adds something. I'm pretty sure it's the owner of the website adding the link too... /wangi 13:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the German language is a drawback and that this may be valid reason not to re-add, but I disagree that the link has no added value when compated to the article. The link has much more info than the article. I propose to re-add the link. Andries 16:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Even if the link has much more info than the article, the mere fact that it is in German, as opposed to English, makes it not useful to readers of the English Wikipedia. I do not understand how the link adds value when only German speakers who read the English article can comprehend the link. Elektrik Blue 82 16:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The link has added value for people like me who read the English Wikipedia and can also understand German. Andries 16:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it that things are done here by concensus? I am confident that only a very small minority of readers of the English Wikipedia also understands German, the majority does not. So for the majority, the link has no added value. If you go with the logic that it is ok to add a link because it is of value to a certain small minority of the users of the page, then we could add any link we want, because I am sure that any link is of value to a small minority of Wikipedia readers. So if there exists another link about ZRH but is in Tibetan, we might as well add it because it is useful to a minority of readers of the English Wikipedia who happen to also understand Tibetan. Elektrik Blue 82 17:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's discuss about the real issue here, ZRHwiki, and not a rather hypotetical Tibetan Web site on Zurich International Airport... I agree that ZRHwiki is published in German, however, the images, maps and other illustrations contained are certainly of use for users of this Wikipedia here. Regarding a comparison between this stub on Zurich International Airport and ZRHwiki with its many articles, I abstain from any further comment...

Fact is that ZRHwiki is quite unique with regard to Zurich International Airport since it is the only (at least to my knowledge) wiki designated to this particular airport. And hey, if you feel a need for an English version of ZRH, why don't you just contact the responsible webmaster? ;) --Swiss Aviation Supporter 14:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: Reverting other contributions to airport articles is kind of your favorite sparetime activty, right (according to Special:Contributions/Elektrik_blue_82 at least...). Poor guy! --Swiss Aviation Supporter 16:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

So you're into personal attacks now? Elektrik Blue 82 17:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

We have many non-English external links on Wikipedia. In cases where there are many (say, 10) good English language links, they can be argued to be superfluous and will be the first to go. In more obscure topics, we keep the most notable non-English links around. I am not sure about ZRHwiki, especially seems Swiss Aviation Supporter seems to be promoting a site he is involved with (which is discouraged). Plus, no, it doesn't matter that it is a wiki, it should be judged entirely for the notability of its content. But it should not be removed simply on grounds of being in German. dab (ᛏ) 16:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

True, but if non-German users cannot navigate through the website due to their lack of knowledge of German, then how is it useful in the first place? Elektrik Blue 82 17:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

What I am concerned about is the fact that one MUST need to know German in order to navigate thru the site. The link points to a Hauptseite, a Homepage, not to a visual aid, not to a map, a diagram, or a table. Besides, I think it is more of a collection of superfluous information: i.e. it is separate articles for ZRH (a short article saying it is the IATA code of the airport), or LSZH (again a short article saying it is the ICAO code of the airport). Is this link really encyclopedic? Elektrik Blue 82 17:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

@dab: I am not involved with ZRHwiki. In the contrary, the ZRHwiki webmaster asked me to refrain from my activities here, however, I will not stop fighting against vandals like Elektrik Blue 82! --Swiss Aviation Supporter 05:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest honouring the webmaster's wishes instead of going against his wishes and trying to "spam" the site. --Arnzy ^{(whats up?)} 14:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

And accusing people of being "vandals" won't help your position. And it's a violation of WP:FAITH. And maybe WP:NPA, depending on interpretation. --physicq210 22:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

@Elektrik Blue 82: ZRHwiki is a wiki, so stubs are normal. Given your approach, Wikipedia should not be called encyclopedic either. Stubs are normal in a wiki, improvements always possible. In addition, ZRHwiki seems to use MediaWiki as well although the version is not the latest, probably for good reasons. Anyway, users comfortable with the navigation within Wikipedia will not be lost within ZRHwiki. And hey, why all the links to Wikipedia articles in foreign languages? --Swiss Aviation Supporter 05:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

So you agree that there are stubs in ZRHWiki. But then I thought that references and external links that are appropriate here in Wikipedia should be more authoritative than Wikipedia itself? I find it unencyclopedic to link a website that contains stubs for information that can be summarized in one sentence here in Wikipedia (look at first sentence in the article, and ZRHWiki has two separate articles for ZRH and LSZH. The articles about individual airliners also contain information that pertains only about that airliner and its relation to the airport. I don't find that more authoritative than Wikipedia itself. Elektrik Blue 82 12:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why you hate another indepedent wiki like ZRHwiki so much (judging from what I've read above). It's your right to despise of other wikis, however, you shouldn't vandalize Wikipedia for that reason. Thank you. --217.162.56.94 21:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Zrhwiki again

I've reverted the addition of that link again. I do not see what encyclopedic content it adds that this article doesn't already have. . Can any one provide links to unique content (diagrams, images, maps) on that site that would be a good reason to link to it? Additionally it's not a reliable source... Thanks/wangi 12:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Looking further at the site I have come across a number of interesting diagrams, and even photos... Problem is the site has no concern about copyright - diagrams are being pulled out of Unique Airport publications and photos simply downloaded off websites (e.g. Airliners.net). This leaves me with two major concerns about including a link to this site:

It's not a reliable source (see WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided #2)
It contains many copyright violations (see WP:EL#Links to be used occasionally #5)

And to a lesser degree:

WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided #1 and #7

Thanks/wangi 13:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm starting to view the continuous attempts to add this commercial "Zrhwiki" link borders on disruption. Anyone hold this view? I know the additions seem to be spaced approximately five days apart, only to be immediately reverted. --physicq210 21:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I took out the last one based on the talk page agreement on that. The trouble is this time it came from an IP rather than the registered user as the earlier ones had. Hard to know what to do tho' if you feel strongly it may be worth looking at getting it on the blacklist of sites? Regards --Nigel ^(Talk) 09:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I just tried looking up where the IP address is located, and it seems it is from Zurich, Switzerland. I have a feeling it is the same person as the registered user who has been adding the link before. Elektrik Blue 82 22:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's certainly disruptive. Thanks/wangi 23:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Elektrik blue 82, Please do not write in the edit summary that there is consensus, because there is none. Andries 18:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Andries, please see my detailed reasoning for not adding the link above - do you disagree with those points? Thanks/wangi 18:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

In particular consider this quote from WP:EL: "Links to sites that violate the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations. Sites which fail to provide licensing information or to respond to requests for licensing information should not be used. (Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States.)". Thanks/wangi 18:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Keeping my thoughts on whether it's the same person we were dealing with a few months ago to myself, regarding that link I think it's time to add that link to the black-list considering the number of times it was added by anon IPs in a similar range - Zurich Airport edit history. --Arnzy (talk • contribs) 09:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

That isn't a bad idea, except that I do not know as of this moment how to add it. /ɪlεktʃɹɪk bluː/ 15:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

ZRHwiki yet again

ZRHwiki is a wiki and therefore as reliable as Wikipedia (or not). I don't see any proof of copyright violations, why don't you just assume that pictures, etc. are used with lawful permission? --217.162.56.94 21:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

ZRHwiki doesn't violate copyrights as far as I know. If you're of a different opinion, feel free to contact the ZRHwiki administration. There's at least a copyright policy (http://www.zrhwiki.ch/wiki/ZRHwiki:Nutzungs-_und_Lizenzbestimmungen) --217.162.56.94 21:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes to great length to ensure images used are properly tagged with source and copyright details, ZRHwiki might well list the source of some photos, but they are copyrighted photos - unless permission is demonstrated then we should not assume it has been given. Likewise Wikipedia believes in referencing sources (see WP:CITE and WP:RS), I cannot find similar on your wiki. I see no reason to link to the site given the concerns I voiced above, and indeed many reasons not to (like for starters it's not even in English) - Wikipedia is not here to advertise your website; it does not matter if that site is a "wiki" or whatever. Please stop disrupting this article, have a read of WP:EP and WP:3RR. Thanks/wangi 21:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

According to http://www.zrhwiki.ch/wiki/ZRHwiki:Nutzungs-_und_Lizenzbestimmungen , it's default Swiss copyright law by default. Publishers might choose other licenses. I simply clicked on one of the pictures on the "Hauptseite" (http://www.zrhwiki.ch/wiki/Bild:LSZH_Tunisair_A320200_20060506_001.jpg) and in the picture information, there are mentioned the source and the photographer. But I know it's hopeless you don't care. You hate independent wikis in many of them I actively contribute, wikis on specific topics with a certian depth and not just very general knowlege like Wikipedia. That's the reason why I start to hate you as much as you hate wikis outside the Mediawiki network, I spend a lot of time with other wikis (I don't own a wiki myself). --217.162.56.94 21:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Click through to the source, that image is tagged as "©Patrick Wirth" and no licence is given to use on other websites, and no proof of permission is given either. Repeat for the other images on the site (for a very specific case where further use is explicitly not allowed try one of the images with airliners.net as the source). Thanks/wangi 22:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I am getting the feeling that you are the guy we are dealing with a few months ago. You still haven't answered the challenges presented above. You said ZRHwiki is a wiki and therefore as reliable as Wikipedia (or not). I don't see any proof of copyright violations, why don't you just assume that pictures, etc. are used with lawful permission?, yet it would be ideal for an external link to be more reliable than Wikipedia itself. Assuming that pictures are used with lawful permission wouldn't lead you into a good end, since that reasoning would then permit everyone to assume just anything. Cheers. /ɪlεktʃɹɪk bluː/ 21:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I am getting the feeling that you are the guy we are dealing with a few months ago. Wrong!

You still haven't answered the challenges presented above. You hadn't contacted me so far!

You said ZRHwiki is a wiki and therefore as reliable as Wikipedia (or not).' That's obvious!

Assuming that pictures are used with lawful permission wouldn't lead you into a good end, since that reasoning would then permit everyone to assume just anything. You didn't read the ZRHwiki copyright policy, did you? Look at http://www.zrhwiki.ch/wiki/ZRHwiki:Nutzungs-_und_Lizenzbestimmungen#Lizenzbestimmungen ! AFAIK is the club behind ZRHwiki even chaired by a lawyer, so I'm pretty sure that copyright infringements wouldn't be tolerated. I don't know about your country, but in Western Europe, lawyers have to follow the law.

--217.162.56.94 21:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

History

This article is lacking in historical information... I cam across:

On May 5, 1946 the citizens of Canton Zurich approved by referendum a proposal to spend 36.8 million Swiss francs for the building of an intercontinental airport. Construction began that very summer, and the airport was inaugurated on August 29, 1953

on http://www.historycentral.com/Aviation/airports/Zurich.html but it is unsourced - does anyone know of sources for this information? Thanks/wangi 13:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Airport name

Why is this article entitled "Zürich International Airport"? The airport is called officially "Zürich Kloten", and the English-language version of the airport website calls it just "Zurich Airport" (http://www.zurich-airport.com). The word "International" is incorrect and should be removed. TiffaF 06:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I concur. The article should be at "Zürich Airport." I will move it in five days if there is no opposition against such a move. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 01:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I support the move. I remember the terminal just says "Flughafen Zurich." It doesn't have any word for international on it. So it should be Zurich Airport. --Coolcaesar 04:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It's "Flughafen Zürich" indeed. --217.162.56.94 21:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Linking ZRHwiki again and again

I'm the administrator of ZRHwiki (http://www.zrhwiki.ch). I consider ZRHwiki a reliable source – as reliable as a wiki can be, i.e. every wiki's reliability depends on its users – and I have never been contacted with regard to Wikipedia and a copyright violation. I agree, however, that ZRHwiki should indeed not get linked from the Zürich Airport article here in the English Wikipedia. All ZRHwiki content is in German and has therefore only limited use for visitors of the English Wikipedia.

Thank you for your consideration! --ZRHwiki (talk) 00:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Just as a note: Wikipedia:V#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29 "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media, whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, tweets etc., are largely not acceptable.[nb 4]" WhisperToMe (talk) 19:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Google books is a persuasive argument. However that is not sufficient information to establish the name on its own here. If you consider that the US airlines on their web sites also don't use the umlaut, we now seem to be establishing the case that allows us to select The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage. Then we look at the airport's English site and there are no umlauts. In the text Zurich is used and it is the only form used on the pages I checked (for the airport). I will note however that the page does deal with the umlaut problem in an interesting way for the logo when there the umlaut is replaced with a stylistic accent added to the the u. The airport itself apparently makes a distinction as seen in statements like Flughafen Zürich AG operates Zurich Airport. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Zürich Airport → Zurich Airport – The name of Zurich with an umlaut is not official and not shown around other airports. The official website in English doesn't use any umlaut in its English name and respects the English and international spelling of Zurich. The use of the Umlaut is a germanization of an official English translation that should not happen here. Ngagnebin (talk) 02:45, 26 May 2010 (UTC) — Relisting. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 14:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Support but with failing courage. The city of Zurich is known to many Engish speakers, and the umlaut is rarely used in English, and then often for poetic or similar effect, see Zurich#Name. But see also Talk:Zürich#Zurich or Zürich? and Talk:Zürich/Archive 2. I guess we could say that the airport name is even more rarely shown with the diacritic than the city name... ah well... Andrewa (talk) 17:42, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. Seems like an "if it's not broke, don't fix it" kind of thing. The spelling of Zürich on Wikipedia appears to be, well, Zürich, such as at Canton of Zürich and Zürich. Umlauts are not unheard of in English, for instance noël, naïve, über, etc, and also there are many other pages on Wikipedia that use diacritics in the title such as the place names mentioned earlier, people such as Nicklas Lidström, etc. Rejectwater (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I've left a note at Talk:Zürich letting them know about this discussion. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:12, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Oppose - The official name is irrelevant to the naming of the Wikipedia article. I agree with Rejectwater that umlauts are present in loanwords, so I don't see this as a Germanization. It's debatable which spelling is more common for the airport name, but the consistency with Zürich, Canton of Zürich, etc. seems preferable. --skew-t (talk) 22:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Please read WP:UE, decisions should be made on what is the usage in English language reliable sources. What evidence do you use to conclude that "It's debatable which spelling is more common for the airport name"? If Zürich was to be moved to Zurich then would you support the move of this page to Zurich Airport? -- PBS (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I certainly don't disagree with UE, nor did I argue that some other language should be used. Loanwords are those that have been adopted into English. So far no sources beyond the official site have been provided showing usage either way, so I say it's debatable, as in there can be further discussion on that point. The rational given by the original post was that the article should use the official name. And yes, I'd be more inclined to support a move if it is consistent with the parent article. --skew-t (talk) 21:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

A Google book search returns

107 on Zürich-Airport -Zurich-Airport in English.
790 on -Zürich-Airport Zurich-Airport in English.

This is evidence that in reliable English language sources the use of "Zurich Airport" is about eight times more common than "Zürich-Airport". Do you still think "It's debatable which spelling is more common for the airport name"?-- PBS (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think one Google comparison ends discussion. My main argument however is the official name is irrelevant and consistency is preferable. --skew-t (talk) 08:46, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source that would indicate that the Google Book is not a fairly accurate survey of reliable source usage? If the wording is changed to indicate that the move should be made because "Zurich Airport" is by far the most common usage in reliable language sources would you then change your opinion? It is this use of consistency that is why I have persistently objected to its inclusion in the policy as consistency should not be used to overrule the usage in reliable sources. Let us suppose that the name Zurich was being used for the city name but reliable sources showed that English language usage favoured "Zürich Airport" over "Zurich Airport" do you think we should have it a "Zurich Airport"? -- PBS (talk) 23:35, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Support - per my comment at Talk:Zürich, I'd remove the umlauts from both titles.--Kotniski (talk) 07:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Support The present title of the article on the city is itself debatable; there is no necessity to be consistent with it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:21, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Zürich Airport discomfort.

I found the airport hard to find my way about. There would be one sign pointing where to go, far away from the destination. It was easy to get lost, which I did. One passes many glamorous shops, but finding a place to sit down was not easy. I am not young and need to sit down on occasion. The men's restroom near the gate was up a two landing flight of stairs, and of course I had to lug my carry on suitcase up these stars. The airport is glamorous but far from comfortable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.53.234.106 (talk) 08:04, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Name reprise

We now have a clear decision at Talk:Zürich#Requested move 4 documenting that WP:EN's name for the city is 'Zürich' rather than 'Zurich'. For consistencies sake, it is clearly desirable that other 'child' articles are renamed in line, and I and others have been doing so.

However I'm not at all certain that this article should be renamed in the same way. The previous decision on this article in 2010 (above) is not particularly predicated on the city name, and the airport operator clearly and consistently uses 'Zurich Airport' and/or 'Flughafen Zürich' (depending on the language of the communication) but never the hybrid 'Zürich Airport'.

Also as it describes an international airport, the article context is clearly rather different to other articles of more local significance.

I've just amended the article to replace all references to 'Zürich Airport' with 'Zurich Airport', which is consistent with the article name, but retained 'Zürich' for more general usages. I think that is the correct answer, but I suspect not all will agree. What do others think?; should we rename or not?. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 10:38, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

We already had this discussion a long time ago and we already had a discussion on Zurich regarding the Umlaut. I don't know why they keep on insisting to put the Umlaut in English when the English form does have a translation of "Zürich" in "Zurich". Therefore, even the Airport names itself without the Umlaut in English so I would oppose any change. The problem we have is that often in Switzerland, Swiss-German people translate websites into English from German and they keep the German form when it exists obviously a correct English spelling. I think one should stick to the solely and only official name in English which is "Zurich Airport". Ngagnebin (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Name in English

I'm sorry, but I do not accept the «germanised» spelling of Zurich Airport with the Umlaut into English, when even the official website of the airport uses "Zurich" without umlaut to name itself. Please, at least, do respect the official name and official appreciation of its denomination. --User:Ngagnebin 1:22, 3 Februaty 2010 (UTC)

The above editor is so much on target. It is really silly to use these umlauts in an English-language encyclopedia. GeorgeLouis (talk) 17:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

What the point of voting on the name then ?

I just read the article today and I clearly wonder why do we ever vote on agreeing on an article name/entry on Wikipedia when we clearly reach an agreement about keeping « Zurich Airport » without umlaut and then some people just change it with an umlaut again without any vote and consideration for the discussion(s) held here. I'm seriously considering forgetting contributing to Wikipedia in English as is seems it becomes a banana-republic concerning cooperation amongst its members and democratic discussions leading to an agreement that are just thrown into garbage by others' decisions to make their own rules. I'm getting fed up with this... -.-" Ngagnebin (talk) 07:00, 12 April 2015 (UTC)